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#137 - 12/10/14 04:01 PM Retraining Assessment
Goose Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 6
Loc: Nebraska
My retraining package was just accepted and I am awaiting my official invite for the January assessment. Anyone else going to the same one?

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#143 - 12/11/14 08:58 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Torres Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/09/14
Posts: 36
Loc: Misawa Air Base, Japan
I have a package in as well for a sowt slot. This would be the second time attending if I am invited. God willing I pass this time.

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#145 - 12/11/14 09:35 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Torres]
jamie1775 Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 11
Loc: California, USA
Doesn't Sowt and CCT do the same indoc? I'm currently going from the Marines to Air Force and am jumping through hoops to get to selection early next year. What is a typical day in selection like?

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#147 - 12/11/14 12:07 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: jamie1775
Doesn't Sowt and CCT do the same indoc?
The SOW and CCT COIE is a combined or joint course although the AFECD and CFETP identify it as a separate course and the completion certificate identifies the AFSC appropriate selection course.

The SOW AFECD and CTETP identify the COIE as the two week Special Operations Weather Selection Course.

The CCT AFECD and CFETP identify the COIE as the two week Combat Control Selection Course.

Active duty Air Force retrainee candidates for both AFSCs must successfully get the through the retrainee assessment at Hurburt Fld before getting a training quota in the selection course.

FYI-the combined Joint CCT/PJ Indoc Course ended back in 2000. A few years later the Pararescues Indoc course was separated into two courses, the 11 day CRO-PJ Development course immediately followed by the 64 day (9.5 week) CRO-PJ Indoctrination Course.

A Marine worried about 14 training days? A rough and tough turn the grass red USMC fighting machine should be used to it. Or are you bailing out of an entry enlistment into the USMC to no-prior-service entry enlist into the Air Force?

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#148 - 12/11/14 12:57 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
jamie1775 Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 11
Loc: California, USA
haha, I'm just trying to be a realist about the whole situation. I did 4 active and 3 reserve, but to be honest, the Marines don't do pool sessions like PJ/CCT/SOWT pipelines experience. I've just been reading about the 90% attrition rate for indoc/pipeline so i figured I would do my homework, start swimming, and gather as much info as possible. Did you already do indoc? Any advice?

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#149 - 12/11/14 01:27 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
I did the old school PJ selection and Indoctrination course which is irrelevant to your current serving a military obligation status, situation and circumstances.

I asserted the worried question as the CCT/SOW retrainee assessment is not applicable to you as you as it appears you are attempting to prior service enlist into the Air Force to entry classify into CCT or SOW. You will be considered through the prior service accession program. The Air Force active duty CCT and/or SOW retraining assessment is also irrelevant to my further comments.

Quote:
from 2014 CFETP, active duty is referring to Air Force active duty service members:

6.5. Retraining. 3-Skill Level Requirements.
Active duty retrainees must attend the CCT retraining assessment program hosted by the 24 SOW (AFSOC) before entering the CCT 3-skill level training pipeline. ANG guard retrainees will be assessed through the Prior Service accession program. Retrainees must attend the 3-skill level resident training course.

10.1.1.5.3. For entry into this specialty, successful completion of the physical ability and stamina test (PAST) for NPS Airman and Prior Service Airman. Active duty retrainees must complete the CCT retraining assessment program and be approved by the AFCFM.


Attrition rates by themselves are ineffective in getting a realistic understanding on how to not self eliminate or to avoid getting eliminated out of any of the COIEs discussed on these forums. The TACP five day preparatory course provides evidence of this as there is minimal swimming, if any, involved.

TACP Preparatory Course (a Facebook group page) discloses in a 5 December 2014 post: "7 trainees of the original 28 graduated TACP-P class 15-004 today. Next class will be 5 Jan 15." If you go that link you can read a bit more specifics.

Another Facebook group page, TACP Schoolhouse in a post thread started 10 December 2014 discloses: "The biggest reason for washout is the inability to manage equipment and follow simple instructions."

The context of my comments is many that get eliminated hang on to the least embarrassing to them reason as to why they didn't succeed and when asked why they put out the least embarrassing to them reason. This builds a misinforming myth that gets bought hook line and sinker into by those that have fears of not getting through the training.

The Pararescue Indoc course was split to create the development course that focuses "only" on training to do water confidence and other physically demanding training, the course focuses on teaching how to swim, run and do calisthenics properly and effectively and teaches the advanced water confidence skills encountered in the Indoc course.

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#150 - 12/11/14 02:58 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
jamie1775 Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 11
Loc: California, USA
That's some very interesting info you posted concerning the prior service accession rules. Thanks for taking time out of your day to help me out. It's extremely refreshing to read advice from a fellow vet and not just another civilian on a discussion board. Now I will just worry about air traffic control school lol. Thanks.

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#173 - 12/16/14 11:11 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Hey how's it going? I' have also been invited to attend the assessment out in Florida. What's your training schedule been like?

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#176 - 12/17/14 09:34 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
I have a date for the January assessment also ill see you guys there.

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#177 - 12/17/14 09:38 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: A_Sanchez02]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: A_Sanchez02
Hey how's it going? I' have also been invited to attend the assessment out in Florida. What's your training schedule been like?


hey Sanchez I notices youre at nellis. I was just TDY there for a month, do you get a chance to train with any of the PJ's there? I did a swim class for a couple days while I was there with some PJ prospects but there pool schedule was crap so I could get there to often.

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#179 - 12/18/14 12:29 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: K_Robles87]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Yeah I am currently stationed out at Nellis now. I've met a few but haven't had a chance to train with any of them. There is a guy out here that was a PJ and holds classes for retrainees/prospects at the gym on base. I wonder if you are talking about the same class. His schedule is mainly held in the morning and I work swings so I never get an opportunity to go. I swim and do water con stuff at the YMCA by my place. The pool on base no longer allows water confidence training or underwaters unless supervised by an official operator, which sucks. You still waiting on an assessment date?

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#180 - 12/18/14 02:13 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Yeah I am currently stationed at Nellis. I've met a couple PJs from the Rescue Squadron out here but haven't had a chance to train with them. The pool on base at the gym is nice but the schedule is horrible. I work swing shift so it's hard to coordinate my swim schedule with their pool hours. I swim and do watercon at the YMCA by my place. So you are also attending the assessment in Jan??

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#182 - 12/18/14 07:35 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: A_Sanchez02]
Goose Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 6
Loc: Nebraska
I am stationed at Offutt currently. I haven't recieved my official invite to the January assessment yet and with being on leave, I can't check my email. My training schedule varies.i definitely try to run and swim every day. I do my ruck days on Friday with a Controller stationed at my base. Hopefully my official invite will come through.
_________________________
"Limits exist only in the mind"

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#183 - 12/18/14 09:15 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
yeah i know the guy your talking about but I never got to train with him. I trained with a couple younger guys and the teacher her name was Kelly. we couldn't do underwater stuff which sucked but we did some finning in ABU's and buddy breathing mostly which was cool.

hope it does come through Goose if so ill see you out there.
my training schedule is completely random. I haven't been to the gym in a week and a half probably. seems like something always comes up to keep me away this week. I am definitely going on a long run today and I do some calisthenics at work when were not jobbing.

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#189 - 12/22/14 11:05 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Goose Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 6
Loc: Nebraska
I know that exact feeling man. just have to get it in when you can!
_________________________
"Limits exist only in the mind"

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#233 - 12/30/14 11:55 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
cheechusaf Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/25/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Osan AB, ROK
Have any of you guys going to the January assessment gotten your formal invitation to the course yet? I am slotted to go to it but haven't received any information yet from the 24 SOW/RAS

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#234 - 12/31/14 08:32 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: cheechusaf]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
I am slotted as well but haven't received an official invite yet either. I e-mailed the POC today. Hopefully he can give me some information.

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#239 - 01/01/15 01:23 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
cheechusaf Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/25/14
Posts: 2
Loc: Osan AB, ROK
I emailed em too, hopefully hear back soon since it's only about a week away.

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#262 - 01/05/15 01:41 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
i just got my formal invite on the 2nd I seen your name in the email Sanchez. I will see you all there this weekend! just got to figure out how to create orders and get my butt there. anyone else as excited as me?

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#263 - 01/05/15 07:27 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: K_Robles87]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Excellent. I've been out of town for a couple days. Thanks for the heads up K_Robles87! I will see you all there. Can't wait..

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#264 - 01/05/15 09:33 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Goose Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/08/14
Posts: 6
Loc: Nebraska
I also received an invite. Let's kill it.
_________________________
"Limits exist only in the mind"

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#301 - 01/08/15 01:45 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Tom Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 7
Loc: United States/ varies
Hey guys, was just wondering if any of you who were invited to the JAN assessment had a timeline from when you finished everything in MyPers to actually getting the assessment dates? I know it's out of my hands at this point, but was just looking for a ballpark. Thanks

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#302 - 01/08/15 02:44 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Tom]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Tom,

I submitted my package to MyPers the morning my commander signed off on all the appropriate documents. That very next day I received an email from the POC at Hurlburt Field about attending the assessment. It was extremely quick. If you have any more questions feel free to ask.

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#305 - 01/09/15 06:11 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
it depends on when you actually submit your package. mine took a little longer than Sanchez did because Chief Adams was attending an assessment but I would say if it takes longer than a month I would start calling the chief

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#399 - 01/16/15 12:12 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
SF2CCT Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Tampa, FL
Did you guys have to take the TAPAS for the retrain? I was told the AF-TAPAS is only used for non-prior people enlisting and it's only given at MEPS.

I submitted my package and they kicked it back telling me to go to my education office and take the test.

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#401 - 01/16/15 01:21 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: SF2CCT]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: SF2CCT
retrain? I was told the AF-TAPAS is only used for non-prior people enlisting and it's only given at MEPS.
This was the answer I was given by HQ AETC 6-months ago.

I just sent an email to contacts at HQ AETC for clarification. It's Friday so it may be a few days before I get an answer.

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#404 - 01/16/15 01:53 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: SF2CCT]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
I received the same notification from AFPC. No one at the education center or mental health center was aware of this test. I simply replied and told them that no one had any valid info on where or how to go about taking this test. They got back with me and told me to disregard the TAPAS test because it is not being implemented for re-trainees. Atleast not yet. The psychological tests are carried out at Hurlburt Field during the retraining assessment.

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#406 - 01/16/15 03:29 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: A_Sanchez02]
SF2CCT Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Tampa, FL
When did you submit Sanchez?

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#410 - 01/17/15 10:43 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: SF2CCT]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
I submitted awhile ago and just got back from the Jan assessment.

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#411 - 01/17/15 10:51 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RGSx7 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 26
Loc: VA
how did the assessment go for you guys? I was wondering how much of the assessment focused on finning?

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#413 - 01/17/15 02:23 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: RGSx7]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
The assessment was very difficult. The Cadre want to make sure that they have a solid foundation to work with as far as water confidence, endurance, rucking abilities, leadership, teamwork and intellect. My team was getting smoked with burpees and 8 counts constantly. We started with 14, ended with 7 and two were selected. Aside from the rigorous demands of the training, the assessment team personnel was awesome(psych doctors, cadre, chiefs). Very passionate about what they do. If anyone has any other questions, feel free to send me a PM. The assessment I attended did not cover finning at all.

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#415 - 01/17/15 04:32 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Congrats on completing the assessment. Seeing as they only chose 2 of the 7 who completed must mean you really need to stand out. What are your plans now for the future?

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#417 - 01/17/15 05:24 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Dylanderson]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
I appreciate it. Unfortunately I was not one of the 2 selected. However, my retraining package is still open and the Chief will be letting me attend the assessment in either April or August. They liked what they saw from me. I just need to tweak a couple things. Mainly running endurance. As an NCO, a lot more is required/expected of you to be pushed through the pipeline. They need to know that you are fully ready and capable for the training demands.

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#418 - 01/17/15 05:34 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Roger that. If you don't mind me asking how long is the assessment? Is it a full week?

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#419 - 01/17/15 05:35 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Dylanderson]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Dylanderson
Seeing as they only chose 2 of the 7 who completed must mean you really need to stand out.
Correct as long as it is understood this statistic applies only to this specific assessment.

The point being is there is a finite known availability of COIE quotas for cross trainee applicants and more applicants arrive at the assessment than is needed.

Context being TIG as a SSgt if higher than others may have influenced the decision if the standout performance was indistinguishable from the SrA and lower TIG SSgts. The critical or essential information of this context is do not compare yourself to others who got selected or not selected to judge or guess your chances. If you get the opportunity to go, then go and not only give your best, but give your all.

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#422 - 01/17/15 06:54 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Originally Posted By: Yukon
If you get the opportunity to go, then go and not only give your best, but give your all.


Thank You for this advice Yukon.

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#423 - 01/18/15 09:45 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Dylanderson]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
I received 6 travel days total. We were assessed Monday through Friday.

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#435 - 01/21/15 04:38 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
congrats on making it through the assessment sanchez. I wish I had been better prepared mentally for it. I can only hope they will let me go back. I feel like it was a waste for me to go there to only fail the PAST and look like a dumb ass to them.

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#437 - 01/21/15 11:18 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: K_Robles87]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: K_Robles87
I feel like it was a waste for me to go there to only fail the PAST and look like a dumb ass to them.
Ouch, but one would expect the applicant on active duty attempting to retrain out of one AFSC into the PJ, CCT, SOW, and TACP AFSCs would be the ones least to fail the PAST.

The SIE and other elimination Stats do not vary much from the stats of those entering training directly out of BMT.

On 5 April 2014 the TACP Preparatory course posted "Two more prior service slots were wasted this past class. Do your research people. You have to train at a level higher than the PAST."

This was after the following posts:

2 June 2014: You are wrong, and your supervisor is wrong, if you failed a PAST at your unit, prior to your TACP Prep date, and then show up at Prep and fail the PAST again. We will send you home. No questions asked. As NCO's and Airmen, you should be physically prepared to meet the minimum entry level standards when you show up.

28 April 2014: Retrainees, do not show up at the TACP Prep Course with a PAST score sheet almost a year old. It's valid only 45 days prior to Prep. We have the ETCA on the internet that all NCO's should be familiar with. Its your guide that tells you what to bring. Lastly, do not show up knowing you don't have the capacity to pass the PAST. That's a big waste of tax payers $$ and a waste of instructors time.

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#438 - 01/21/15 01:49 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
I just got the following info from HQ AETC, apparently TAPAS is now part of the application/retraining package:

When they contact AFPC about retraining they should receive information about where they can accomplish it, which is at a local MEPS, recruiting station, or through an online secure login process.

Retraining policy did not provide a document stating this but stated it was directed from HAF A1.

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#461 - 01/22/15 04:06 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: K_Robles87]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Thanks Robles. Hopefully you will get another shot at it. It was a rough week, but I'll endure it again for an opportunity of a lifetime. No doubt about that

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#466 - 01/23/15 02:50 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Yukon
Originally Posted By: K_Robles87
I feel like it was a waste for me to go there to only fail the PAST and look like a dumb ass to them.
Ouch, but one would expect the applicant on active duty attempting to retrain out of one AFSC into the PJ, CCT, SOW, and TACP AFSCs would be the ones least to fail the PAST.

The SIE and other elimination Stats do not vary much from the stats of those entering training directly out of BMT.

On 5 April 2014 the TACP Preparatory course posted "Two more prior service slots were wasted this past class. Do your research people. You have to train at a level higher than the PAST."

This was after the following posts:

2 June 2014: You are wrong, and your supervisor is wrong, if you failed a PAST at your unit, prior to your TACP Prep date, and then show up at Prep and fail the PAST again. We will send you home. No questions asked. As NCO's and Airmen, you should be physically prepared to meet the minimum entry level standards when you show up.

28 April 2014: Retrainees, do not show up at the TACP Prep Course with a PAST score sheet almost a year old. It's valid only 45 days prior to Prep. We have the ETCA on the internet that all NCO's should be familiar with. Its your guide that tells you what to bring. Lastly, do not show up knowing you don't have the capacity to pass the PAST. That's a big waste of tax payers $$ and a waste of instructors time.






yeah I was good on everything (or so I thought) but I wasn't able to swim as much as I wanted to over the holidays and I guess I got gassed quickly and on one of my laps I hit the shallow end and my feet hit the ground and I just stood up out of nowhere. A stupid mistake on my part I guess. between being TDY and Christmas and new years I just wasn't able to train like I had been. It just wasn't the right time for me I guess. if and when I get the opportunity to go back It will be a different story. I will be more prepared.

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#479 - 01/23/15 10:44 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Stay positive!

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#481 - 01/23/15 11:41 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: K_Robles87]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: K_Robles87
I guess I got gassed quickly
So you had to swim through some CS (tear gas), now that's water confidence training. However old school was having to swim under burning oil and gas. Just kidding about the CS, but during WWII combat swimmer training had them swimming under burning oil and gas. See 3:11 in the video.



However getting gassed (unless it's gassing and bloating connected to Aunt Flo visiting) is caused by either poor swimming breathing technique putting air into stomach or some sort of digestive issue that could be connected to consuming foods that cause bloating and gas or some sort of digestive disorder.

If it is a breathing casual the problem will seldom be avoided by simply swimming more laps or swimming laps more frequently. Correction requires improving breathing as not to breath air into the stomach which does also go passed stomach into intestines.

Getting gassed up from a breathing causal generally indicates water is also being swallowed during the laps. The context being this is an indicator of a weak swimmer having weak swimming methods and techniques. Correction involves a bit more intervention than swimming more laps as their is a performance "habit" that needs to be corrected. Habit is how you do and not capability or ability to do.

Of course some people might need the extra flotation to actually swim or they think making like a blow fish will scare away the instructors during water confidence training. eek Unfortunately the blow fish student can't put enough air into the stomach to do that. cry

Getting gassed would need to get to a pain discomfort level to distract sufficiently to cause a unplanned standing up out of no where. I'm willing to bet you were probably swallowing water during those laps too.

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#536 - 01/29/15 04:21 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
ha! thanks for that elaborate post on different forms of being gassed lol. I definitely swallowed water and I do think I need some technique lessons when it comes to swimming. it wasn't that I was out of shape I just cant swim very good. ive never had any swim lessons or ever really swam until I applied for CCT. the first time I ever swam laps was july of last year and I just watched videos and tried to teach myself how to swim. I struggled on the initial PAST for my retraining package but I swam it in 11:09 which took everything I had. i was just really uncomfortable in the water this time around. all excuses aside i just need to get more efficient at swimming and give it another shot when my time comes.

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#538 - 01/29/15 11:24 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: K_Robles87]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: K_Robles87
...I just cant swim very good. ive never had any swim lessons or ever really swam until I applied for CCT. ... i was just really uncomfortable in the water this time around. all excuses aside i just need to get more efficient at swimming and give it another shot when my time comes.
Which is exactly what I visualized in my mind from the comments I previously responded to.

Swimming pool laps is easy day until in a pool with a bunch of others floundering through their laps. The water is not exactly calm and over the years I have observed many a in good shape individual, but ineffective/inefficient swimmer get a mouthful of water. Consider yourself lucky that you only gassed up, I've seen one or two inhale a mouthful of pool-water into the lungs.

Open water swimming in the ocean or a lake (particularly during windy/stormy days) is much different than swimming laps in the pool. This is why the PAST only has purposes of determining if the individual has capability and ability to be trained during the training days each course provides.

The PAST pass range of minimums and maximums do not exist to determine the best of the best, but rather represents the norm percentile of average of most likely interested in getting trained and who are most likely to successfully complete training. There is no screening need to determine an individual being better than the norm average percentile.

Above the maximum is for lack of a better word ridiculous as no fitness test can simulate human performance necessary to accomplish in the operational environment.

The video below is a 60 minute documentary, but it does give insight into what gets encountered in the open ocean.



The water infil sequences best showing sea state encountered are 27:56 - 32:40 and 33:31 - 37:38.

If going to view only the footage suggested, I suggest the following parts be viewed too: 00:00-1:19, 7:37-8:26, 9:27-10:24, 11:50-13:03 and 18:49-19:43.

As far as sea state in this video, the ocean was seldom this calm during many of the day-and-night open ocean parachute jumps and day-and-night helicopter lows & slows (exit helicopter flying at about 10 feet and 10 knots) I accomplished during my career. Thus purpose of the water confidence training. These parachute jumps and low and slows were not done into summer waters either. Manny during months of December, January and February into the North Atlantic off the coast of Iceland, England, Scotland, Norway, Denmark and Alaska.

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#551 - 01/30/15 11:50 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
JLaign Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 11
Loc: MacDill/Tampa FL
K_Robles87 teaching yourself to swim is fine, but if you continue to feel "gassed" or extremely tired after/during a 500m swim; I will give you some advice. Try and find a gym or pool that offers master swim lessons (instructors training collegiate athletes/triathletes or at that level) and pay for it. I did this and it is worth every penny (all 50,000 of them). Just some advice! Best of luck and NEVER QUIT!

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#655 - 02/11/15 02:34 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
K_Robles87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Texas
thanks for the advice JLaign, I have been out of the pool for a while now but I am definitely going to look into some swim lessons. my goal is to be able to swim 1k meters without stopping and it feeling natural and not getting gassed.

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#843 - 03/03/15 06:03 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
moody Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/14/15
Posts: 1
Loc: Washington
Does anyone know the close out date to submit your retraining package for the April CCT assement course?

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#844 - 03/03/15 06:15 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: moody]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: moody
Does anyone know the close out date to submit your retraining package for the April CCT assement course?
I doubt the submitting an enlisted retraining application is controlled or influenced by the enlisted CCT and SOWT retraining assessment screening dates. It's not actually a course with training goals, training objectives and lesson plans in the same way the Combat Control Selection Course at Lackland is.

I also doubt submitting your retraining request application today, March 3, 2015, would get you processed through all the PAST, initial Class III-SOD medical exam and other mandatory prerequisites to be cleared to even show up as a candidate/applicant to be screened and selected during an assessment scheduled to happen during April 2015.

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#845 - 03/03/15 08:18 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: moody]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Moody,

If your retraining package is complete, send it to AFPC ASAP. I had my package approved by Chief Adams within 24hrs when I submitted. Depending on the Chiefs workload, this turn around time varies. The sooner you submit the more likely you might get a slot for the April Assessment. However, like Yukon mentioned, if your package still needs a fair amount of items to be completed then more than likely the April Assessment will be out of reach.

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#853 - 03/04/15 12:59 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: A_Sanchez02]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: A_Sanchez02
Moody,

If your retraining package is complete,
Unfortunately, "date to submit your retraining package" lacks assurances the individual has submitted a retrain application request and further lacks disclosure of the retraining request has been approved by AFPC to even start working on getting the perquisites (package of PAST, initial Class III-SOD medical exam) started and completed.

Regardless the NLTD date to get all the prerequisites accomplished and submitted is unlikely connected to getting an individual into a specific retrainee applicant selection assessment at Hurlburt for various funding and scheduling realities. Nor is any assurances given a package will be worked within 24 hours. Can be differs (your personal experience) from an absolute will be (implementing policies and directives).

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#863 - 03/05/15 08:43 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Rhthree3 Offline
FNG

Registered: 03/05/15
Posts: 3
Loc: California
I'm just wondering, I am already in the Air Force as an air traffic controller. Looking to retrain into cct. Would I have to go through the ACT course at Kessler again?

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#1001 - 04/05/15 09:05 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: jamie1775]
Thor Offline
FNG

Registered: 04/03/15
Posts: 3
Loc: NY
You have obviously never been to MCIWS school kid.

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#1002 - 04/06/15 08:09 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK

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#1003 - 04/06/15 08:42 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
Thor Offline
FNG

Registered: 04/03/15
Posts: 3
Loc: NY


Those attrition rates are incorrect. they don't count people that washout right away, my class was 55 percent.

Now, I have a question in regards to CCT. Since it is my understanding that they are the SOC equivalent of Army Pathfinders. How much time is spent on Comm systems? From what Ive read, after making it through selection and into the school itself, they basically PT the hell out of you while you are becoming Air Traffic Controlled qualified. Now are you learning Comm systems within that course? Or is that more focused on during the pipeline?

Thanks

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#1004 - 04/06/15 08:52 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Rhthree3]
BEAR13 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/20/14
Posts: 30
Loc: OK
Yes, you will have to repeat ATC school. PM me for more details on it. I am in the same boat in terms of being active duty ATC looking to retrain to CCT.

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#1023 - 04/14/15 05:13 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Tom Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 7
Loc: United States/ varies
Hope the April assessment went well for any of you guys that attended. Submitted my final documents last week, hoping for an invite to the next one.

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#1039 - 04/16/15 11:08 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Thor]
PepperUrAngus Offline
Journeyman

Registered: 01/10/15
Posts: 50
Loc: US
Originally Posted By: Thor


Those attrition rates are incorrect. they don't count people that washout right away, my class was 55 percent.

Now, I have a question in regards to CCT. Since it is my understanding that they are the SOC equivalent of Army Pathfinders. How much time is spent on Comm systems? From what Ive read, after making it through selection and into the school itself, they basically PT the hell out of you while you are becoming Air Traffic Controlled qualified. Now are you learning Comm systems within that course? Or is that more focused on during the pipeline?

Thanks


No Comm systems training at ATC. You go through the same ATC course as regular Air Force, fundies, radar, and tower.

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#1041 - 04/16/15 01:49 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Thor]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Thor
Those attrition rates are incorrect. they don't count people that washout right away, my class was 55 percent.
I provided the link as most readers on these forums have no clue as to what acronyms represent. Also this is a duty position qualification course more so than a required entry into a military occupation course. Thus the attrition rate although high doesn't result in the service member being in position of being reclassified into a different less physically demanding occupation, unless the MOS requires it as a qualification.

I also posted the link as many also do not realize several USMC MOSs and various duties have some sort of must be able to swim (water survival-Marines are inherently amphibious by nature and are expected to operate in aquatic environments) requirements versus the "all" Marines are held to the same swim standards the article suggest as the actual requirements are determined by unit of assignment and MOS duty position in the unit.

For example all USMC military parachutists:

Current policy (17 DEC 2014) Swim Qualification. Due to water hazards on and near parachute drop zones, Marine Corps personnel filling valid parachuting billets and/or participating in parachute training on a permissive basis must be qualified as Water Survival Intermediate (WS-I) at a minimum. All Marine Corps personnel participating in deliberate water parachute operations will be qualified as WS-I, per reference (r). Per reference (ah), Marines qualified as Marine Combatant Divers who are assigned to diving duty and meet annual currency requirements per reference (ah) are exempt from the Marine Corps Water Survival Training Program’s requalification interval. Swim Qualification. Due to water hazards on and near parachute drop zones, Marine Corps personnel filling valid parachuting billets and/or participating in parachute training on a permissive basis must be qualified as Water Survival Intermediate (WS-I) at a minimum. All Marine Corps personnel participating in deliberate water parachute operations will be qualified as WS-I, per reference (r). Per reference (ah), Marines qualified as Marine Combatant Divers who are assigned to diving duty and meet annual currency requirements per reference (ah) are exempt from the Marine Corps Water Survival Training Program’s requalification interval.)

Previous policy (5 Oct 2004) h. Swim Qualification. The minimum swim qualification for a qualified parachutist is CWS2. Due to water hazards on and near parachute drop zones, all efforts will be made to qualify all parachutists as CWS1. All parachutists participating in deliberate water jumps will be CWS1 qualified.

The USMC qualification levels are:

Water Survival Unqualified

Water Survival Basic

Water Survival Basic Plus (is an Administrative Qualification Level only, assignable only at MCRD Parris Island, MCRD San Diego, and TBS.)

Water survival-Intermediate. Exceeds minimum standard. Enhanced water survival skills providing commanders whose mission profile places Marines frequently around water
training or Military Occupational Skill (MOS) requirement option.)

Water Survival-Advanced (capable of rescuing swimmers in an aquatic environment.) WS-A qualification is the minimum qualification level that provides the requisite skills required for unit commander's risk mitigation when conducting training not directly linked to MCWSTP in and around water
obstacles.

Marine Corps Instructor of Water Survival. Conducts water survival training and is authorized to qualify to the WS-A Qualification Level.

Duty Area standards (individual):

COMBAT WATER SURVIVAL 4TH CLASS (CWS-4)-emphasis in this duty area is on personal water survival without combat gear. Swim 25 meters in shallow water (1 meter or deeper) using either the beginner swimmer stroke (front or back), or demonstrating a survival stroke, or any combination thereof.

COMBAT WATER SURVIVAL 3RD CLASS (CWS-3)-Emphasis in this duty area is on personal water survival under combat conditions and
while on maneuvers in full combat gear. Travel 25 M utilizing any combination of survival strokes or beginner swimmer
strokes.

COMBAT WATER SURVIVAL 2D CLASS (CWS-2)-Emphasis in this duty area is on assisting an exhausted/wounded Marine to safety while wearing full combat gear. Enter water from the side of the pool, and using one or a combination of survival strokes, travel 50 meters in deep water. Also, among other requirements Enter deep water and perform a 25-meter collar-tow on wounded "victim", while the "victim" simultaneously tows two packs (one under each arm).

COMBAT WATER SURVIVAL 1ST CLASS (CWS-1)-Emphasis in this duty area is on the ability to rescue oneself, assist a wounded Marine to safety and survive under adverse conditions. Among other requirements includes: Enter water from the side of the pool, Perform breaststroke for 25 meters, Perform sidestroke for 25 meters, Perform elementary backstroke for 25 meters, and Exit the water.

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#1042 - 04/16/15 03:07 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Thor]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Thor
Since it is my understanding that they are the SOC equivalent of Army Pathfinders.
frown Although your question is valid the adjective connection of "SOC equivalent" to "Army Pathfinder" is wrong, incorrect, and not possible.

First, although USSOCOM is a joint (multiservice command) it is Army. Further Pathfinder qualifications lack qualities to differ qualifications in the orientation being service specific, command specific or conventional-versus special operations-specific. Such adjective qualifier combining to Pathfinder is as silly as stating TACP is a Special Forces air traffic controller.

Further Combat Control Teams were actually established in 1952 to be the Army Pathfinders for airborne assaults, air field seizures and for all other Army operations that required use of Air Force aircraft requiring pathfinders on the ground to mark the LZ/DZ and control the airdrops or landings. The causal was Air Force insisting it was Air Force boots on the ground that must do this if the Army wanted/needed Air Force aircraft to do the airdrops or land on a seized (air field assault) to establish an airhead.

Quote:
Airhead- a designated location in a hostile or threatened territory, which, when seized and held, ensures the continuous airlanding of troops and materiel and furnishes the maneuver space needed for projected operation. Also, a designated location that is used as a base for supply and evacuation by air in an area of operations. (Joint Pub 1-02).


Special Tactics Squadrons exist primarily to establish airheads. The disaster at Desert One or Operation Eagle Claw (Iran-1980) is the causal origins. Airhead is somewhat vague as the airfield can be any suitable area to land aircraft to be the gas station to refuel other aircraft and vehicles such as tanks, trucks, etc. Desert One is also an example of establishing a temporary Forward Area Refueling Point).

Quote:
Special Tactics Team—United States Air Force special operations consisting of combat control, pararescue, and combat weather personnel who are organized, trained, and equipped to establish and control the air-ground interface at an airhead in the objective area. Functions include assault zone reconnaissance and surveillance, establishment, and terminal control; combat search and rescue; combat casualty care and evacuation staging; special operations terminal attack; and tactical weather observations and forecasting.


Although Army runs the Badge awarding Pathfinder School, what exactly is a Pathfinder?

Pathfinder Course-- Army Pathfinders are trained to provide navigational aid and advisory services to military aircraft in areas designated by supported unit commanders. The Pathfinders’ secondary missions include providing advice and limited aid to units planning air assault or airdrop operations. During the Pathfinder course students are instructed in aircraft orientation, aero-medical evacuation, close combat assault, ground to air communication procedures, Control Center operations, all three phases of a sling load operation, Helicopter Landing Zone and Pick Up Zone operations, and Drop Zone operations (Computed Air Release Point, Ground Marker Release System, and Verbally Initiated Release System), dealing with U.S. military fixed and rotary wing aircraft for personnel and equipment.

There is also Army Air Traffic Controllers. http://www.army.mil/article/146147/Air_traffic_controllers_hone_skills_during_exercise/

Quote:
"We practice being in remote locations when aircraft are operating in more dangerous environments, such as forward operating bases," said Sgt. Shawn Carriere, air traffic control operator, Fox Company, 3rd General Support Aviation Battalion, 82nd CAB.
What differs the Army ATCs from CCTs is CCT do the initial tip-of-the-spear establishing of airheads, assault DZs and LZs rather than being the follow-on combat support crew.

The U.S. Air Force Sends Giant Cargo Planes on Special Operations --> For decades now, the U.S. Air Force has trained crews to operate large cargo planes on dangerous special missions all over the world.

The Special Operations Low Level II program qualifies pilots and crew to fly at night, at low level and in bad weather. SOLL II also prepares airmen to land their enormous planes on short runways with no lights.

C-17 Special Operations Low Level II --> The United States Air Force maintains an elite cadre of C-17A crews trained to Special Operations Low Level (SOLL) II standard.

These aircrews fly modified C-17 Globemaster aircraft on special operations which may include:

insertion, extraction and resupply of SOF, including via austere runways

night ops, with the aircraft blacked out and pilot using Night Vision Goggles (NVGs)

air drops of supplies via parachute

insertion of SOF troops via HALO, HAHO or static line parachute

air drops of SOF boats and personnel onto water

Many of the above missions are of the type also carried out by AFSOC's fleet of MC-130E and MC-130H Combat Talon aircraft. C-17A SOLL II aircraft, however, can operate at a much longer range and can carry more and bigger cargo.

Charleston AFB C-17 Special Operations Low Level (SOLL II)

Special Operations Low Level

In addition to the MC-130's, the USAF also has two squadrons of "conventional" cargo aircraft that have been modified to augment their capacities and allow them to perform some limited special operations support. The official name for these types of missions is SOLL II, or Special Operations Low Level, version Two.


Special Operations Low Level I and II had its origins with C-130s and C-141s during the early 1980s. Rescue Special Operations Low Level (HH-53 and HC-130s of the 41st ARRS, 41st ARWRWg, McClellan AFB also came about during the same time period.




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#1145 - 05/05/15 10:24 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
jerrybrown5081 Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Wy
Just got the email telling me I'll be heading to the 26 July assessment while I was TDY! Anyone else heading that way? Stoked to get this opportunity, gonna make sure I don't waste it!

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#1151 - 05/05/15 02:37 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RJE87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Spokane WA
I will be there

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#1154 - 05/06/15 07:05 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RGSx7 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 26
Loc: VA
I'll be there, can't wait!

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#1156 - 05/06/15 09:18 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
jerrybrown5081 Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Wy
Awesome! Looking forward to meeting you guys! Lets kill this *****!

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#1199 - 05/11/15 01:55 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Torres Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/09/14
Posts: 36
Loc: Misawa Air Base, Japan
I've had my package in the "sent to CFM" phase for a while now. I thought you only get invites when you're two weeks out from DOT 1? That's 12 weeks of good training time from now until then. If you guys got the invite already then power to ya!

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#1203 - 05/11/15 10:18 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
jerrybrown5081 Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/19/14
Posts: 5
Loc: Wy
It took me about 6 weeks after it was sent to the CFM. You'll get the unofficial invite soon which will give you the dates and the packing list. The official invite is two weeks out.

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#1212 - 05/13/15 09:22 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RGSx7 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 26
Loc: VA
So I received an unofficial invite to the July assessment a couple weeks ago. I just happened to check the retraining advisory today and see zero slots for SSgts under CCT. I'm very new to this process, does anybody know if I'll still be going in July or if since they have no more quotas, I wont end up going?

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#1213 - 05/13/15 09:30 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Difficult for me (retired Air Force to answer), however CCT's retraining advisory has stated for years not to automatically disapprove retraining application only because it doesn't fit the published retraining in profile pertinent to primarily SSGT rank and SSgt TIS. I presume this is why the unofficial invite, which is a potential opportunity to firm up an approved retraining action. Put your best foot forward and press on.

Quote:
Advisory code 424: For disqualified airman. Do not disapprove application at the myPers-Total Force Service Center based solely on mismatches between grade objectives. See BPO.

and

Advisory code 418: Must be in grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years of TAFMS for Combat Control (1C2X1)

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#1217 - 05/13/15 04:29 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: RGSx7]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Shellfish,

When I attended the assessment in January, an individual asked the cadre during our open forum about quotas for the 1C211 AFSC. How often do they need new selectees etc. We were told that they are always accepting individuals. I don't understand why there is an advisory if that is the case?? So hopefully you and I will both be attending the July assessment.

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#1218 - 05/13/15 05:01 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RGSx7 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 26
Loc: VA
Gentlemen,

That puts me a bit more at ease, thank you both for your quick responses!

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#1219 - 05/13/15 06:39 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: A_Sanchez02]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: A_Sanchez02

I don't understand why there is an advisory if that is the case??
The advisory code makes it official for others outside of the combat control career field. No official advisory code prevents exception to policy happening or being allowable.

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#1245 - 05/19/15 12:47 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Spyders Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 3
Loc: NJ
Gentlemen,

Any help on this matter would be greatly appreciated. I applied for retrain to MyPers and was accepted to submit a package. While getting my retrain documents together there was still retraining quotas available for Combat Control. But when I submitted my package there were no retraining quotas on the On line retraining advisory for SSgt 1C2X1. Since there were no quotas MyPers has officially dropped my case. I was wondering if anyone has had this happen, because I had heard that 1C2X1 is always recruiting regardless of the retraining advisory. Any input would be appreciated even if it's just telling me I'm SOL and have to wait for the retrain advisory to update again. Thanks!

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#1246 - 05/19/15 02:02 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
I can't answer your specific question, but it's impossible to approve any retraining request if there are no quotas in the system to bring an individual into the AFSC with.

There are 9 FTA training in quotas available. So the question begged for in answering your question is are you a FTA SSgt or are you SSgt in second or subsequent enlistment?

If FTA advisory note 424 may be applicable--For disqualified airman. Do not disapprove application at the myPers-Total Force Service Center based solely on mismatches between grade objectives. See BPO.

More than likely however the answer, which I can't provide, is likely to be SOL you must wait for a SSgt requirement.

Also be aware of advisory note 418--Must be in grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years of TAFMS for Combat Control (1C2X1)

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#1248 - 05/19/15 02:17 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
Spyders Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/02/14
Posts: 3
Loc: NJ
Yukon,

Unfortunately the advisory not does not apply to me because I am a second term SSgt with 5 years time in service. I figured the answer would probably be that I will just have to wait. The only positive is that I have the entire package done so now if a spot does open I just have to submit it again. Thank you. I appreciate the response.

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#1255 - 05/20/15 04:23 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
SF2CCT Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 13
Loc: Tampa, FL
The advisory still applies to you even though you are second term. You will now go off the SSgt quotas instead of First Term Airmen.

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#1257 - 05/20/15 09:22 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Spyders]
A_Sanchez02 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/15/14
Posts: 23
Loc: Nevada
Spyders,

Unfortunately this happened to me as well during my first time applying for 1C211. My flight physical took forever because of my PRK waiver and all the slots closed before I could submit my package. I tried anyway, and recieved the same notification you did from MyPers. However, once slots opened back up for second term SSGT I submitted right away and was approved. I just had to change the dates on a few documents and retake the PAST test again. Good luck brother.

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#1270 - 05/23/15 08:46 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: A_Sanchez02]
TI1987 Offline
FNG

Registered: 03/20/15
Posts: 3
Loc: NM
@shellfish

I think that once your app has been approved and It says pending assesment or CFM review you could go to the assessment. I would imagine it would only be an issue for those attempting to submit their first request. I'm supposed to be going to the July assesment I'm a second term SSgt and my package still remains open even though there are 0 SSgt slots.


Edited by TI1987 (05/23/15 08:55 PM)

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#1285 - 05/27/15 12:45 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Does anyone know how I would get in touch with somebody who is allowed to conduct a PAST? Being stationed at Keesler I thought I could have a cadre administer it, but they are not allowed to anymore. On myPers under the retraining advisory note section (advisory note 278) it says location on the HQ AETC/A3T portal page, but I'm not finding anything.

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#1289 - 05/28/15 08:49 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
-----Original Message-----
From: THOMAS, JOHN F GS-12 USAF AFSOC 24 SOW HQ/RAS
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 5:44 AM
To: NORRAD, WAYNE G GS-12 USAF AFSOC 24 SOW HQ/XP
Cc: John Cassidy
Subject: RE: Who gives retrain applicants the PAST these days?

The instructors are getting handcuffed these days from AETC/2nd AF. We'll be at Keesler on 11 June if he wants to join in then.

jt



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#1291 - 05/28/15 11:13 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Originally Posted By: Yukon
-----Original Message-----
From: THOMAS, JOHN F GS-12 USAF AFSOC 24 SOW HQ/RAS
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2015 5:44 AM
To: NORRAD, WAYNE G GS-12 USAF AFSOC 24 SOW HQ/XP
Cc: John Cassidy
Subject: RE: Who gives retrain applicants the PAST these days?

The instructors are getting handcuffed these days from AETC/2nd AF. We'll be at Keesler on 11 June if he wants to join in then.

jt




Thanks Yukon for getting me this info! Of course ill be on leave during that time, but hopefully next time around I can join in.

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#1294 - 05/28/15 11:59 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
JLaign Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/18/14
Posts: 11
Loc: MacDill/Tampa FL
Coming to MacDill anytime soon?

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#1298 - 05/28/15 04:57 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
I have no idea and I presume there is some official means through AETC portal to get the where and when for required retaining PAST.

I decided to query 24SOW without asking if individual was confirmed through MYPERS as eligible to retrain as the situation of instructor cadre not administering PAST to retrainees was an interesting question.

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#1320 - 06/03/15 12:46 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
austinmiller23 Offline
FNG

Registered: 05/19/15
Posts: 2
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
Waiting until my window opens up to apply, what all did you guys have in your package?

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#1322 - 06/03/15 10:37 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
BEAR13 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/20/14
Posts: 30
Loc: OK
Once you submit the request to retrain and it is approved you will recieve a list of stuff for your package. However, what they will not tell you they need, but you DO need, is an AF form 522 (weapons quals) and a recommendation from your current Commander. Make sure you get that stuff squared away so you can submit your package right away. My buddy and I were unaware of those requirements and had to wait an extra two weeks to get the extra paperwork squared away

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#1323 - 06/03/15 11:21 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RGSx7 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/18/14
Posts: 26
Loc: VA
Also, I highly recommend getting your class III physical taken care of right away, I can't speak for where you're at but we have someone here at flight medicine who takes care of all of that. They should be able to hook you up. The process can be lengthy

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#1326 - 06/03/15 03:35 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: BEAR13]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: BEAR13
need, is an AF form 522 (weapons quals)
I believe this requirement is "if possible". Most of the Air Force are in Group B AFSCs, meaning they are not armed in-garrison and are only armed for contingencies.

Further "Combat Arms must ensure that units/agencies that require printed copies of the AF Form 522 are provided access to SFMIS to produce the form." Meaning it's an electronic record that can be easily obtained if needed.

General group B policy is these individuals will complete weapons qualification only when they are identified by name by their commander to fill a deployment tasking to a combat zone in time of war or a designated hostile fire area (actually deploying, not merely subject to deployment).

The context being is every training round fired through a rifle or pistol must be paid for by somebody and further each unit and/or base is allocated only so many rounds for this training each fiscal year. The service member is not in position to demand this training.

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#1328 - 06/03/15 04:14 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: RGSx7]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Shellfish
I can't speak for where you're at but we have someone here at flight medicine who takes care of all of that.
Flight Medicine doesn't approve, schedule or fund Initial Flying Class Medical examinations without documentation of eligible for retraining and submitted application for retraining documentation. It's a matter of somebody is paying the costs of the initial Class III-SOD medical examinations getting done.

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#1333 - 06/03/15 11:46 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
austinmiller23 Offline
FNG

Registered: 05/19/15
Posts: 2
Loc: Las Vegas, NV
I have a Class I flight physical completed, will that carry over as a class III? Appreciate your guys' help, I'm at Nellis by the way

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#1334 - 06/04/15 07:23 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
BEAR13 Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 11/20/14
Posts: 30
Loc: OK
Yukon, you are correct. I am currently ATC so I am not "armed in garrison", however, the 522 showing my qualifications from BMT was required for the package. Also, you are correct that the records are easily obtainable, I had to go through CATM on my base in order to get them.

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#1335 - 06/04/15 11:25 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
The context of my comment is Combat Arms enters AF Form 522 History into a electronic data base, meaning this info or rather getting a copy of your AF Form 522 history is easily done by requesting it through CATMS.

As obtain basic rifle qualification is a BMT requirement all enlisted Air Force service members have an AF Form 522.

Unfortunately having current weapon qualifications is less likely if the Air Force service member is in a group B AFSC.

My comments were addressing requiring copy of AF Form 522 to be included as required document in the retraining package is not the same as requiring current (not expired) Air Force Qualification Course for rifle and/or pistol.

It also addressed if unable to get copy of AF Form 522, getting into a weapon course of fire AFQC may be difficult to schedule for a AF service member in a Group B AFSC for the reasons given.

There is much that differs Group A from Group B. Perhaps the most distinguishing is:

Quote:
AFI36-2226, Combat Arms Program:

5.25.3. The Combat Arms organizational commander may approve temporary use of qualified Group A personnel to help the Combat Arms section when there is not enough Combat Arms (3P0XlB, SEI 312, DoD civilian equivalent) manpower at the installation to meet the workload.


Other is the TRQC—Tactical Rifle Qualification Course is generally a BA AFSC requirement. Courses required for award of 3-level AFSC generally includes this course although it's not listed as a required formal course.

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#1340 - 06/04/15 07:59 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: BEAR13]
JohnG Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 14
Loc: NM
Originally Posted By: BEAR13
Once you submit the request to retrain and it is approved you will recieve a list of stuff for your package. However, what they will not tell you they need, but you DO need, is an AF form 522 (weapons quals) and a recommendation from your current Commander. Make sure you get that stuff squared away so you can submit your package right away. My buddy and I were unaware of those requirements and had to wait an extra two weeks to get the extra paperwork squared away



The Letter of Recommendation, is this ontop of an Exception to Policy letter or the same thing ? Thank you

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#1341 - 06/04/15 08:22 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: JohnG]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Stuart
The Letter of Recommendation, is this ontop of an Exception to Policy letter or the same thing ?
Two different purposes and two different documents.

An exception to policy is a one-time request to deviate from policy, ignore policy, adjust policy to allow, or give relief from policy or to lower standard.

A recommendation is the commander advocating why your loss from unit and current AFSC into a new AFSC benefits the Air Force. There is no focus on requesting deviation, ignoring, adjusting of policy or to lower standard.

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#1348 - 06/06/15 12:53 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Yukon]
JohnG Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 14
Loc: NM
I understand the difference and meaning of the two, just confused as to why the need for both. If a commander is already signing a paper allowing you to re-train early, what would be the need of having their approval/recommendation to re-train also? Seems a little redundant.

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#1350 - 06/06/15 10:25 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Obviously you don't understand the purpose differences.

The exception to policy is abnormal as expectation is it is not needed. The exception to policy pertinent to cross training is the service member giving consideration reasoning as to why inconvenient rules, polices, and procedures do not apply to him or her. The service member is explaining why unfair advantage be extended to him or her before others who are in compliance with rules, policies, and procedures.

The expectation is the commander's recommendation is a normal requirement and is needed. Presuming more than the unit commander's signature on a form that requires very little integrity and says very little about the service member, the commander's recommendation is indicating the service member's demonstrated behavior, conduct and performance competences' has worthiness deserving consideration for being repurposed into another military occupation.

One is the service member demanding either effectively or ineffectively consideration be given to them, the other is the service member's unit commander giving his or her endorsement or verification the service member has worth that deserves consideration.

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#1796 - 08/31/15 11:37 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
AStelmack Offline
FNG

Registered: 08/14/15
Posts: 19
Loc: Grand Forks AFB, ND
If anyone needs examples of what ETP/LOR/etc look like, shoot me a message or look me up on global at my .afcent e-mail and I'll gladly send y'all everything I used for my most recent application.

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#1799 - 09/01/15 10:49 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
MYPERS in the retraining area also provides Exception to policy guidance.

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#1868 - 09/17/15 06:51 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
jrc621 Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/03/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Eglin AFB
My package has been processed through AFPC and it has been forwarded to the CFM for review. Anyone else in the same boat? Right now it's just a waiting game until I find out my class date for the retraining assessment...

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#1873 - 09/18/15 03:45 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Sunshine93 Offline
FNG

Registered: 09/17/15
Posts: 8
Loc: Hurlburt Field
jrc621, I am awaiting official invite as well. However I have already confirmed with the Chief of retraining that I can attend the next assessment (Nov 1-7). I would imagine you should be getting an email from him soon.

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#1890 - 09/22/15 07:47 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
jrc621 Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/03/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Eglin AFB
Just got my unofficial invite on Monday. Anyone else headed to the assessment 1 Nov besides Sunshine93?

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#1892 - 09/23/15 09:30 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
RJE87 Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 6
Loc: Spokane WA
you should receive an email with all your teammates names... I just went through in august and got selected... another sere guy up here with me is going the same date you are ... his name is moody .. you guys should start to communicate with the whole team and get squared away...

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#1897 - 09/24/15 10:44 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Sunshine93 Offline
FNG

Registered: 09/17/15
Posts: 8
Loc: Hurlburt Field
RJE87, thanks for the advice. About how long before our assessment should we receive this email?

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#2070 - 02/24/16 07:01 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
tdcloud13 Offline
FNG

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Virginia, USA
Has anyone been able to locate assessment dates for FY16? I have scavenged every resource I can think of, and the only thing I have been able to find was a post on the SOWT facebook page putting the next assessment with a start date of April 11. Any light to be shed here?

-Cloud

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#2074 - 02/26/16 06:44 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: tdcloud13]
tdcloud13 Offline
FNG

Registered: 05/23/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Virginia, USA
located...FYSA, of course dates are subject to change.

-10-15 Apr
-14-19 Aug 16
-30 Oct - 4 Nov 16

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#2075 - 02/26/16 01:34 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
bowldsy Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 13
Loc: Kent, Wa
Wanted to know if anybody heard about or is going to a late july class date for CCT selection? My recruiter told me that he was able to move me from a slot in an up coming pj indoc class to a cct class in late july (as CCT was my first choice).

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#2081 - 02/29/16 06:52 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
MI Offline
FNG

Registered: 09/18/15
Posts: 1
Loc: FL
Quick question about the retraining PAST test. I am submitting my package to retrain into Combat Control, and I see it was brought up earlier in thread, maybe I missed something, but who has to administer the PAST to me? I cannot seem find anything in the HQ AETC/A3T Portal, which mypers refers to. I am stationed at Eglin now and a friend of mine at STTS gave me a POC for a SGT who runs the RAS, but I would rather not go directly to him first. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

-MI

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#2083 - 02/29/16 09:57 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Nikolaus Offline
FNG

Registered: 04/18/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Tucson
In the second paragraph of the "PAST narrative"

"Test administrators (PTL in absence of functional personnel) will sign, have commanders/superintendents endorse test results, and provide a copy to the member."

My squadron PTL administered mine.

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#2093 - 03/06/16 01:33 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Nikolaus Offline
FNG

Registered: 04/18/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Tucson
I just received my unofficial invite to the April Retraining assessment. I was wondering if anyone here completed the assessment and got picked up?

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#2094 - 03/07/16 07:12 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
JohnG Offline
FNG

Registered: 11/25/14
Posts: 14
Loc: NM
I went through and got picked up. Started with 13 ended with 8 I believe, 4 picked up though. Don't quit, have fun with it, and be ready to ruck.

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#2096 - 03/07/16 07:25 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Nikolaus Offline
FNG

Registered: 04/18/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Tucson
Thanks!

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#2135 - 03/31/16 02:04 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
GetSome15 Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/19/15
Posts: 3
Loc: Maryland
I was just informed that I will be attending the 14-19 August course is there anyone else that has been selected for this course??

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#2136 - 03/31/16 10:15 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: GetSome15]
sticksandstones Offline
FNG

Registered: 03/27/16
Posts: 10
Loc: Charleston, SC
I'm also going, I've started a new thread for all August Assessment people to get in contact.

Here: http://specialtactics.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2131/August_CCT_Assessment.html#Post2131
_________________________
(The Air Force will only own the Air as long as Force is applied. FLY+FIGHT=WIN)

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#2141 - 04/03/16 08:36 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Solus Offline
FNG

Registered: 04/02/16
Posts: 3
Loc: F.E. Warren AB
My package was submitted last week so hopefully August will be the class I attend.

Does anyone know if because my current AFSC has a SRB but is not on the shortfall list, I will have any trouble getting my retraining request approved?

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#2151 - 04/05/16 09:33 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
NHaskin91 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 14
Loc: Hill AFB, Utah
I just found out that I'll be attending the August assessment too.
_________________________
Embrace the suck.

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#2168 - 04/13/16 06:30 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
sticksandstones Offline
FNG

Registered: 03/27/16
Posts: 10
Loc: Charleston, SC
Nice! Where do you work at on Hill?
_________________________
(The Air Force will only own the Air as long as Force is applied. FLY+FIGHT=WIN)

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#2174 - 04/17/16 06:33 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
NHaskin91 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/13/15
Posts: 14
Loc: Hill AFB, Utah
Part of the 388th FW. My current job is ammo.
_________________________
Embrace the suck.

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#2356 - 06/26/16 07:17 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
sticksandstones Offline
FNG

Registered: 03/27/16
Posts: 10
Loc: Charleston, SC
But IYAAYAS... guess it's time to be the ***** eh?
_________________________
(The Air Force will only own the Air as long as Force is applied. FLY+FIGHT=WIN)

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#2574 - 10/04/16 09:27 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
mhutch93 Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/20/14
Posts: 1
Loc: las vegas
Going to the assessment in December. Anyone else on here going?

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#2583 - 10/06/16 10:19 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
saberz007 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/19/16
Posts: 13
Loc: North Dakota
I hope so. Just waiting on AFPC to get back to me regarding my package. I am happy to hear there is one coming up soon.

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#2600 - 10/17/16 02:57 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
leroyjenkins Offline
FNG

Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 4
Loc: florida
Anyone have any info about the pararescue retraining assessment?

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#2633 - 11/08/16 08:50 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: leroyjenkins]
KBroUSAF Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/01/15
Posts: 12
Loc: Arizona
leroyjenkins,

Here is the link to the PJ Assessment thread.

http://specialtactics.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/2226/New
_Prior_Service_Selection_fo.html#Post2226

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#2715 - 12/28/16 07:52 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
saberz007 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/19/16
Posts: 13
Loc: North Dakota
Has anyone heard when the next retraining assessment will be held?

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#2716 - 12/29/16 09:41 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
Dylanderson Offline
Apprentice

Registered: 12/28/14
Posts: 25
Loc: MS
Jan 22. I just received an email from MYPERS that my application was sent back due to class slots unavailable. Not sure how the last slot was filled when the assessment isn't until the 22nd of January. Maybe they had a lot of applicants scheduled for the assessment? So, if you are a FTA like me you will have to wait for slots to re-open. Good luck!

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#2718 - 12/29/16 09:56 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
saberz007 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/19/16
Posts: 13
Loc: North Dakota
Dang, the same thing will probably happen to me then. Mine was sent to the CFM last I looked, but I have not received an email like the one you described from MYPERS, or from the CFM. That's too bad we have to wait, you'd think for BA AFSCs the quota of available retraining positions would be higher. Good luck to you as well!

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#2719 - 12/30/16 09:29 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: saberz007]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: saberz007
you'd think for BA AFSCs the quota of available retraining positions would be higher.
How so?

You do realize the BA AFSCs are the least in allocated numbers of funded duty position (manpower) in the force structure?

You do realize that numbers in an AFSC's enlisted grade allocation force structure distribution decreases above the SSgt 5-skill level?

The Air Force considers enlisted skill level, rather than grade, the primary indicator with regard to experience and/or effectiveness required to perform a task (AFI 38-201). The expeditionary skill and grade mix should generally be the same as for peacetime operations, except that requirements in the crisis environment should minimize the use of 3- levels. Only utilize 3-levels when AFSC specific technical skills can be applied in the deployment environment (e.g. Third Country National escort or Postal augmentation) (AFI 38-205). I highlighted critical info in red as review of CFETP will show if initial skills courses have reduced wartime training requirements or not. This is critical as expeditionary skill is not the same as wartime skill and very few AFSCs exist primarily to deploy over the horizon to a crisis or incident with minimal notice or planning. Consequently the 3 level core tasks, at least for pararescue, reflect minimum trained and qualified to be assigned to a combat unit to be deployable capability and resource. The majority of the enlisted BA AFSCs available to deploy force structure resides within the 5-level E-4 and E-5 ranks. A 7-level NCO in the BA AFSCs is providing critical leading which is why policy of "Grade of E-5 or below with less than 10 years Total Active Federal Military Service (Total Federal Military Service for Reserve of the Air Force personnel)" is in place for Pararescue and Combat Control,

Quote:
Combat Units—Forces expected to fire weapons, conduct reconnaissance, or engage in other activities directly related to combat operations. Includes, but not limited to, Fighter, Bomber, Reconnaissance, Special Tactics, Rescue (Guardian Angel), Special Ops, Missile, and Airborne Command and Control squadrons, regardless of MAJCOM.

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#2720 - 12/31/16 01:17 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
saberz007 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/19/16
Posts: 13
Loc: North Dakota
I did not know that BA AFSCs are the least allocated intentionally. With the limited knowledge I have, I figured it was due to a lack of people having the desire or ability to retrain for a BA AFSC. I do realize that the enlisted force structure decreases the further up the chain and that 5-level personnel are the workhorses of their environment, so to speak. I do understand why the Air Force considers the skill level over grade as well.

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#2721 - 12/31/16 05:57 PM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: saberz007]
Yukon Online   content
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 847
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: saberz007
I did not know that BA AFSCs are the least allocated intentionally.
This is an incorrect perspective of how allocations to put students into training for any AFSC, to include the BA AFSCs, come into being available. The allocations that get into being are what the Air Force needs, no more, no less.

By definition, a manpower requirement is the manpower needed to accomplish a job, mission, or program.

Pertinent to this the Air Force has 23,333 active duty enlisted Security Forces (funded manpower allocated positions) compared to 550 Active duty Pararescue, 621 Combat Control, 102 SOW, and 1,244 TACP.

Consequently allocations that come into being to retrain an Airman out of current AFSC into a BA AFSC is a limited requirement sized to reflect what the specific BA AFSC needs to maintain and sustain the total manpower requirement to accomplish the mission the BA AFSC provides the capability to do.

The perspective pertinent to a lack of people having the desire or ability to retrain for a BA AFSC is inaccurate as numbers submitting retraining applications demonstrate more than sufficient numbers apply each fiscal year. The ability is the problem which is why Combat Control, Special Operations Weather and Pararescue (as of May 2016) require all who submit a retraining application attend an assessment to complete the application approval to retrain into those AFSCs. The reality of the 22 Jan 2016 CCT assessment being unable to accommodate any more individuals for consideration further demonstrates there is no lack of FTA and career airman trying to retrain into the BA AFSCs.

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#2724 - 01/03/17 08:34 AM Re: Retraining Assessment [Re: Goose]
saberz007 Offline
FNG

Registered: 01/19/16
Posts: 13
Loc: North Dakota
Alright, thank you. I believe I understand why now.

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