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#1468 - 06/29/15 07:50 PM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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Yukon Offline
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Originally Posted By: pkt1213
I'm sorry you didn't like my Duck Dynasty clip art beard. My buddies and I were discussing this, this weekend and one of them made the crack about how are they going to grow an operator beard.
I'm disappointed in the minimal effort as Photoshop allows for much better putting beards on a female than put forth by person photoshopping the posted picture did. Disappointed differs from dislikes.

Originally Posted By: pkt1213
My first 2 paragraphs were just a comparison between an integrated unit and a non and a few of the issues that come up.
The problem has been well documented, although not given public exposure, since DESERT SHIELD/DESERT STORM. It is a unit leadership problem of leaders in the unit at minimum being reluctant to take preemptive preventive corrective actions and at worse being integrity compromised participants in the problem.

Originally Posted By: pkt1213
I won't get in to a pissing contest about SLC vs Ranger School.
Me neither, as both exist for optional not required career development (service member is not penalized for failure to complete the course or not volunteering to go through the course) rather than as a mandatory required military occupation classification standard or required of duty position standard. I, however, was and am addressing your reasoning of or rather generalization “The few [sapper] tabbed women I know are legitimate bad asses” with no context of defining legitimate bad asses and the comparison correlation to being there participating in doing special operations activities and missions.

The curriculums of both the Ranger Tab leadership School and the SAPPER Tab leadership course exist to provide attending students opportunity to develop small tactical team leading skills by exposing the students to realistic tactical simulations in a controlled tactical training environment. Awkwardly, however, your accurate disclosure of woman have been allowed in Sapper School since March 2002, does force awareness SAPPER leadership course human performance standards do differ in some way from the Ranger leadership school.

The differences are irrelevant to career military occupational classification, retention in military service, and promotion as award of either one Tab or both Tabs are not required regardless of rank to hold and perform duties of MOS, although award of the TAB gives the enlisted service member 40 promotion points.

Quote:
AR 600–8–22:
(3) Ranger, Special Forces, and Sapper qualification courses. Soldiers will be awarded 40 promotion points for completion of these courses. All phases of the courses must be completed prior to awarding promotion points.


Although the tab awarding leadership school and course are extremely mentally and physically demanding, there is minimal if any specific requirement to sustain task, skill, and other human performance standards after the course is completed. This is what differs completing an optional not required leadership school or course from being in a special operations duty position assignment for a few years or spending a career in a special operations (Battlefield Airman) occupation where human performance standards are to be sustained throughout the assignment to a duty position in a Special Forces designated unit or throughout cradle to grave award of the occupation classification and required performing duties of the career occupation.

#1470 - 06/29/15 11:29 PM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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Yukon Offline
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Gender neutral standards: Opening combat jobs to women

By Stephen Losey, Staff writer 8:38 a.m. EDT June 29, 2015

A key step toward possibly opening the Air Force's last male-only combat jobs to women concluded June 19.

....

Battlefield airmen have to do a wide variety of physically demanding tasks in their line of work — drag a wounded comrade on a sled or hoist him on a litter, launch a boat, rescue people at sea, climb rope ladders, climb over walls, ruck over long distances into enemy territory, among many others. But setting up real-life scenarios to test each of those abilities would be too complicated and expensive to do on a regular basis. So the Air Force is trying to match each of those tasks with regular physical fitness tests, such as pullups, distance runs, lunges, standing long jumps, and dead lifts.

...

Then, once the critical task list of the most arduous, important tasks was set, volunteers each spent 10 days at Lackland. The first week, they did 39 fitness tests to assess their agility, power, muscular strength, muscular endurance, and anaerobic and aerobic capacities. The second week, they performed 15 different task simulations mirroring what they would encounter on the battlefield — swimming, wall climbing, and dragging dummies to simulate casualties.

...
The Air Force says the testing effort will not mean lower standards to accommodate women.
...
Baumgartner said his team at AETC has until July 31 to provide its recommendations on standards to Air Force leadership. After that, the Air Force and other services will make their own recommendations to Defense Secretary Ash Carter in August or September, he said.

Carter is expected to send his own recommendations on which jobs should be opened up on or about Jan. 1, when Congress will then choose to act on or not.

...

#1480 - 06/30/15 06:17 PM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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California275 Offline
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Piggy backing off of what Yukon is saying, I totally disagree with the assessment that completing any type of leadership school makes an individual ready or capable for serving in a combat unit. I think that a woman somehow squeezing through the cracks of Ranger School does not even begin to qualify her for a Ranger Battalion, or an infantry unit. Ranger School can be passed by droning out for 2 months and simply rising to the occasion of leadership once or twice a phase, getting lucky, or having someone else hold hands and pass a patrol for you.

An all too common leadership error in Ranger Battalion is the squad leader who sends a shitty private to Ranger School, assuming that through his obvious incompetence as a soldier he will fail the school, granting his leadership the right to kick him out of the unit. This plan backfires quite often, and suddenly there is an incompetent "leader" in the midst of an organization which promotes individuals at a very rapid pace. The squad leader should have never given the private the privilege to attend Ranger School in the first place, but in a somewhat understandably lazy attempt to get rid of his problem gave the turd private an opportunity instead of punishing him.(The paper trail required for RFSing someone nowadays is asotunding) Any knuckle dragging infantryman(I include myself in that class of individuals) can carry a ruck for a couple months.

Last edited by California275; 06/30/15 06:21 PM.
#1579 - 07/25/15 01:18 AM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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Remarks by Secretary Carter at a Troop Event in Erbil, Iraq

Presenter: Secretary of Defense Ash Carter
July 24, 2015

Q: Yes sir.

My name's (inaudible). My first question is what -- so far, how are we doing with the – women in service review board, how that's going? And then are we looking at our -- is there still talks of lowering the standards of the SOF selection courses to cover victims?

SEC. CARTER: You say you're a P.A. here?

Q: No, pararescue.

SEC. CARTER: Okay, I was going to say. Because I thought if you were in P.A., only a P.A. person would ask a two-part question. (Laughter.) You're clever enough to do that.

Okay, so women in service and the second standards. To the second part, no.

We are -- we look at standards. We look at standards all the time, but there's not -- no idea of lowering standards. In fact, we have the opportunity in the U.S. military, because of the tremendous stock of people who want to join us and who stay with us, we're in a happy position that we, you know, increase standards.

I only say we look at standards all the time, and -- and a part of that is the women in service thing, but only a part. We need to look at standards all the time because we need to keep understanding what excellence is, and we need to keep understanding what is relevant in today -- in terms of today's combat skills.

So you're constantly looking at standards, just so that you -- because we have -- we're the best today, we want to stay the best, right?

Now, women in -- women in service, the second part. And sorry, for the not Americans, this is a question of there are -- while the -- while the various specialties of the U.S. military are mainly open to men and women, there are some that are not.

And we're looking at those remaining ones and seeing which if any can be opened up to women. We're not going to do that by relaxing standards or changing standards. That isn't what we want to do, as I said. It's by the way, not the way women want to be admitted to service, either. But it -- the services, the armed services are doing that. They have until the end of the year to complete their own thinking through of that, then they'll come to me with recommendations, and I'll make -- I'll make decisions in that regard.

And the only reason it takes time is you know you want to be careful with things like this. One of the things I'm proud of here at the Department of Defense, and I don't mean to be boastful here, because you know, others are from great militaries also, but one of the things that I am very proud of about us is what a great learning organization the U.S. military is.

So you know, we work through things really well. We'll work through the women in service thing, we'll work through standards in general in the future and how to carry ourselves forward in the future, but the specific answer on the women's service thing is the -- the armed services are doing that now. MOS by MOS for the restricted ones and they'll come to me at the end of the year and I'll take it from there.

#1590 - 07/31/15 02:05 PM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: Jay_Pew]  
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RIKR Offline
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Originally Posted By: Jay_Pew
Let's be realistic, women are just not as strong as men. That's not going to change.


As a matter of fact the ACTUAL scientific numbers regarding female strength, speed and stamina are:

STRENGTH: 75% of men
SPEED & STAMINA: 90% of men

There is no doubt that women CAN achieve the present standards. The present standards are actually lower than High School Varsity level so they are nothing special.

But there are some female specific issues. Because of their endocrine profile it takes 3-5 times longer to achieve that performance and takes 3-5 times more work to maintain it. It comes down to this: For the present standards, women CAN achieve them, but WILL they? Second, WILL they maintain them? Doubtful for both. The more realistic scenario is a woman might make it through selection but will fail to meet the standards in the pipeline. If they do they will be forced to cross-train once on the team for the same reason. There is also the issue of the UCMJ and inappropriate relationships between service members. That will also get both male and females booted. And that is the elephant in the room... Sex... Sex and how women by default try to manipulate any and every situation, even under stress and duress to get men to do everything for them. I have a great deal of experience working with these Female Engagement Teams (or whatever the name is this week) is SOCOM and they are completely worthless. I have never heard of anything positive about them and my experiences with them were horrifying. All they do is try to sleep with as many operators as possible and get them to do literally everything. Then they put that info on their staff slides and submit it to higher, thus looking like they are doing amazing things. But they're not and when you have women running around your compound banging everyone it drives a wedge between the guys and destroys the team. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. If the DOD is so intent on that capability they need to keep them completely separate so they don't wreck the male teams. ANything else will be disasterous.


MN
US Special Operations Team Leader
MFF, Mountain Warfare, Combatives & SOF Medical Instructor
International Master level strength & conditioning coach
#1592 - 08/01/15 03:09 PM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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California275 Offline
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RIKR,

You speak from common sense, but half of the problem with the people who advocate for women in combat arms is that their ideals come from the overarching and leftist intertwined ideology of "feminism" and "progressiveness", two systems of thought which are too far reaching to see common sense. Your experience with women overseas, and mine, points towards the obvious differences between men and women that have existed since the beginning of time. Since it is now becoming a popular opinion that gender is a social construct instead of an actual classification of the sexes, your argument is considered null and void by these irrational morons. In order to achieve their goals, the so called "progressives" have made it a point to introduce thoughts and opinions which demonize any argument against their own ideals on a public forum. It takes away the ability to have a real debate about these issues. The problem with this gender neutral bullshit is that having the delusion that you are a different gender or whatever, does not suddenly grant you the physical or mental attributes of the opposite sex. Women who want to be men, or do what men do, are still going to be weaker than real men. Women who want to be like men are still going to throw a wrench into the cogs of the social and professional environment in such a close knit group, which depend on its cohesion to survive.

Last edited by California275; 08/01/15 03:10 PM.
#1603 - 08/05/15 09:48 AM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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RIKR Offline
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California275,

True. So true and so tragic...


MN
US Special Operations Team Leader
MFF, Mountain Warfare, Combatives & SOF Medical Instructor
International Master level strength & conditioning coach
#1611 - 08/05/15 08:00 PM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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Now that we have passed the July 31, 2015 deadline for "STO, CRO, CCT, and PJ (13CX, 13DX, 1C2X, 1T2X) physical standards validated, congressional notification," are there public updates to the physical standards for those AFSCs?

For that matter, have the new physical standards for any gender-restricted AFSCs been updated following the June 2015 occupational duty specific physical ability trials?

#1612 - 08/06/15 03:21 AM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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TE Offline
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TE  Offline

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Varies
They have until August or September per Yukons post.


TE
Pararescueman (Ret)/Webmaster/Administrator/RKC
The real test comes when all strength has fled, and men must produce victory on will alone...
#1613 - 08/06/15 03:22 AM Re: Women joining Air Force Special Operations Units, your thoughts? [Re: denroy17]  
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Yukon Offline
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I'm unaware of the Department of the Air Force submitting any official notification to US Congress yet. Neither am I aware of any of the other military Departments (Army, Navy, USMC, Coast Guard) or USSOCOM submitting any official notifications to US Congress.

My previous post quoted an Air Force Press Release disclosing Secretary of Defense will get the recommendations during August or September. Which means probably October or November for any official word.


None of the standards have been updated yet.

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