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#359 - 01/14/15 12:52 PM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Scott]
Yukon Offline
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Scott

However, I believe the Cadet side of CAP IS actually an important part of Search and Rescue.
The belief of cadets importance being an available SAR capability available and utilized to the same degree as senior CAP members is often overstated and over emphasized by CAP cadets.

The CAP Cadet squadrons and CAP cadets do not exist to be a SAR capability tasked by the Air Force RCC or any other agency. The only way CAP Cadets get involved with an actual SAR is if CAP itself decides to utilize cadets and CAP has significant risk management policies limiting and restricting how involved the CAP cadets can be used, particularly when the CAP cadet is younger than 18 years of age.

Originally Posted By: Scott
"When a distress call is received, the center investigates the request, coordinates with federal, state, and local officials, and determines the type and scope of response necessary. Once verified as an actual distress situation, the AFRCC requests support from the appropriate federal SAR force. This may include Civil Air Patrol, U.S. Coast Guard, or other Department of Defense assets, as needed."
http://www.1af.acc.af.mil/library/factsheets/factsheet.asp?id=7497
This statement in a fact sheet is unchanged from 1947 and is correct or accurate today as it always has been. However CAP is not a Federal Agency and CAP itself is composed of Senior CAP members (the Adults) and Cadet members (the children). While you're 100% correct SAR is not limited to the Senior CAP organization, it is the Senior CAP Organization being referred to in the requests support from statement quoted above.

Originally Posted By: Scott
As part of a ground team, cadets can be qualified to participate in ground SAR operations, as mission observers in CAP aircraft, or as personnel at mission bases.
Correct but important and critical stipulations limiting this participation is being omitted. Omitted are Federal Statutes such as the Federal Employees Compensation Act (FECA) that covers CAP members participating SAR operations initiated by a RCC mission number given to CAP to accomplish. This requires the CAP volunteer to be 18 years of age or older. There are also Federal and state Child Labor and protection laws that prohibit using children (those les than 18 years) even in a volunteer capacity to do hazardous or dangerous tasks. There is also published CAP risk management policies and what the character/integrity of the adults supervising children needs to be.

The relevant published CAP policy guidance:

CAP REGULATION 60-3, CAP EMERGENCY SERVICES TRAINING AND OPERATIONAL MISSIONS

CAP REGULATION 52-10, CADET PROTECTION POLICY <-- Field Conditions. Field conditions are off-road, backcountry training environments where the nearest road cannot be reached on foot within 15 minutes or less.

CAP REGULATION 60-1, CAP FLIGHT MANAGEMENT <--f. Only pilots that are qualified as CAP instructors, cadet and ROTC/JROTC orientation pilots, SAR/DR or transport mission pilots (during supervised missions) may carry CAP cadets as passengers or crew members. At no time may a pilot who is a CAP cadet carry another CAP cadet as a passenger or crew member.

CAP REGULATION 900-3, FIREARMS AND ASSISTANCE TO LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICIALS <--- Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear or use firearms while engaged in Civil Air Patrol activities. For purposes of this regulation a firearm is defined as any device which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, air or any other gas. ... Firearms may be used under strict supervision as authorized in CAPR 52-16, Cadet Program Management.

The point being CAP Cadets while and when participating in SAR operations have limitations and restrictions imposed on them that are not imposed on the Senior CAP membership.

While in Alaska I was involved in several SAR activities in which CAP was involved with one occasion the CAP aircraft with pilot and observer onboard crashed about 100 yards from the aircraft being searched for. Both survived only because we happened upon them by chance in an H-3 Helicopter about an hour after they crashed. It took me an hour to extract them from the wreckage and they were in pretty bad shape from their injuries. Saved both of them though.

The CAP cadet squadron was located three building away from the PJ team build on McClellan AFB during my assignment there. The PJs were frequently involved (including me) with CAP cadet training activities.

The context of my personal background disclosure is I have some working with CAP senior and cadet membership experience which gives me understanding of what differs the cadet member from the senior member. I also have significant numbers of CONUS and overseas civilian SAR missions (crashed aircraft, missing hunters/hikers, climbers in distress) giving me understanding how SAR operations are accomplished in the air and on the ground.

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#361 - 01/14/15 02:25 PM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Yukon]
Scott Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/09/14
Posts: 15
Loc: USA
Very interesting, Sir.

Cadets are indeed much more restricted than Senior Members legally, since we are qualified as minors. Civil Air Patrol seldom works alone during Search and Rescue missions. We do often require support from other agencies who have the more advanced certification and training required; there are limits to what we can do and CAP is by no means the most advanced Search and Rescue agency out there.

Quote:
The belief of cadets importance being an available SAR capability available and utilized to the same degree as senior CAP members is often overstated and over emphasized by CAP cadets.


Of course, as with any organized activity, the members think their team/organization is the best. If you talk to members of two different swim teams, each will tell you theirs is the best. If you talk to a sports fan, he believes his team is better than the rival team.
Although certain cadets may flaunt their amazing "tactical" skills related to Search and Rescue (being sarcastic, Sir), I do know cadets play an important part in rescue operations. Search and Rescue in CAP is not limited to Senior members. The training we receive is not just for our education. It has real applications used for SAR.

Also, Sir, I recognize that cadets are often seen as inexperienced children just getting into the military lifestyle. However, I can tell you that many of the cadets I have met are just as mature as adults. Yes, there are cadets who are immature. Yet according to our core values, excellence is a requirement to be a cadet in the first place. Those cadets that don't grow up quickly learn the hard way. I respectfully request that you acknowledge Cadets as just that: cadets. We may be children, but I believe we are a step above the rest. I don't know many children who have the courage or expertise to attend events similar to Basic training ("Encampment"), learn to drill, maintain high academic standards, and learn discipline, respect, and teamwork.

I am not trying to be argumentative or start a "flame war", Sir, and I hope you understand my respectful disagreement. I also realize I may be wrong about many of the ideas I expressed. My personal opinion, not Civil Air Patrol's in any way. I do still have a lot to learn. Yet the above is my experience in Civil Air Patrol and SAR, for what it's worth. Thank you for hearing me out, and I look forward to your response.

Respectfully,

"Scott," C/TSgt, CAP


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#362 - 01/14/15 04:06 PM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Scott]
Yukon Offline
Operator

Registered: 11/16/14
Posts: 884
Loc: Anchorage AK
Originally Posted By: Scott

Also, Sir, I recognize that cadets are often seen as inexperienced children just getting into the military lifestyle.
You are failing to comprehend. It has nothing to do with the perception cadets are inexperienced children. It has everything to do with federal law and statue of who is an adult and who is a child.

Originally Posted By: Scott
However, I can tell you that many of the cadets I have met are just as mature as adults.
And many adults even Senior CAP members do not function as competent adults. The argument you present and my reply is a logical fallacy. The utilization is not dependent on the individual's emotional and mental maturity, but is limited and restricted influenced by the individual's biological age. The demarcation is 18 years of age.

Originally Posted By: Scott
I respectfully request that you acknowledge Cadets as just that: cadets.
I do acknowledge cadets are between ages of 12 to 21 although technically a cadet is expected to become a Senior CAP member on or after their 19th birthday. CAP policy is "Cadets who become members before their 19th birthday may retain their cadet status until they reach 21 years of age; however, senior membership is optional for all cadets at age 18".

We can go into many aspects of this policy, but the driving organizational factor is to retain due paying members. The most frequent individual's personality factor to delay becoming a Senior member is to avoid loss of senior cadet rank and prestige and not the availability to participate in real adult world of SAR activities and operations. Any qualification certification do not disappear or go away in membership change from cadet to senior member, the cadet rank and benefits of that cadet rank does.

CAP qualification task training and evaluation certification criteria for performing emergency services duties is put forth in CAP EMERGENCY SERVICES TRAINING AND OPERATIONAL MISSIONS

Originally Posted By: Scott

I am not trying to be argumentative or start a "flame war",
The art of effective and efficient argument is not simply statement of certain views, an argument offers reasons and evidence so that others can make up their minds for themselves. Your effort is focused on I must agree with you on what a CAP cadet is or isn't because you say so. You also need me to agree with you as the you are trying to make an argument from being an authority. Arguments from authority that are lacking factual support appeal to others to agree with them rather than on convincing.

Originally Posted By: Scott
I don't know many children who have the courage or expertise to attend events similar to Basic training ("Encampment"), learn to drill, maintain high academic standards, and learn discipline, respect, and teamwork.
Although this is your opinion or belief there are many other organizations giving similar encampment opportunities and orientation activities to individual in the 12 to 18/19 years old age group. You are making your experience the universal experience of everybody who has lived, is living, and yet to be born. There are many organization having "encampment" type opportunities and paths to positive youth development and beneficial development of youth physical fitness. CAP cadet programs do so by focusing on military aviation activities and military drill and appearance.

CAPP 52-24 CADET ENCAMPMENT GUIDE and CAPP 52-25 CADET ENCAMPMENT HANDBOOK disclose what courage and expertise is needed to attend CAP cadet encampments.

Regardless the PJOC and APJOC encampments are certainly worthwhile and do much to contribute to positive youth development and beneficial development of youth physical fitness. CAP Cadets going to these encampments learn a lot about themselves and gain self confidence and self esteem that sets them up to succeed no matter where the career path they decide to follow after high school leads them.


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#364 - 01/14/15 05:38 PM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Yukon]
Scott Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/09/14
Posts: 15
Loc: USA
I understand Sir. I apologize for my ineptitude. Thank you for your time, this has been a very interesting conversation. My apologies for basing my arguments entirely on personal opinion.
_________________________
"Scott", Cadet, CAP

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln

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#455 - 01/22/15 07:53 AM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Scott]
Ric_Walters Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/01/14
Posts: 11
Loc: Texas, USA
Scott,

While your points are valid, you're a little off base quoting fact sheets, etc. to Yukon. He's perhaps one of the best informed people I've ever encountered when it comes to CAP's SAR mission, and how we utilize Cadets in it. PJOC and A/PJOC aren't really play a part in our SAR mission, although they'd be a great addition to the program. They are, however, outstanding opportunities for Cadets to be exposed to the PJ career field and to PJs, who are some of the best members of the Air Force, young men who are great examples of living life to serve others.

If you haven't attended PJOC, and are still young enough to have time to do so, I'd encourage you to apply next year. From what the Cadets in my Group who have attended have told me, it's a life changing experience.

Semper vigilans,
_________________________
Ric Walters
Maj, CAP, Commander
Group IV, Texas Wing

"It matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate; I am the Captain of my soul."
William Ernest Henley, British poet and critic (1849-1903)

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#498 - 01/25/15 02:35 PM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Scott]
Scott Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/09/14
Posts: 15
Loc: USA
Sirs,

I again would like to offer my apologies. I made the mistake of letting my personal opinion get away and was also argumentative. I mean no disrespect to the former/current operators on this page; Pararescue is a career I am considering myself, although I realize it is not a challenge to be taken lightly.

I have actually applied to PJOC and hope to attend this Summer. I have no doubt PJOC will be an amazing experience if I am accepted; for so I've heard from a member of my squadron who attended the class a few years back. Thank you for your time.
_________________________
"Scott", Cadet, CAP

"Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
-Abraham Lincoln

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#530 - 01/28/15 06:59 AM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Scott]
Ric_Walters Offline
FNG

Registered: 12/01/14
Posts: 11
Loc: Texas, USA
Scott,

Well stated. It takes a mature person to apologize and admit an error in any forum, but especially in a semi-public one viewable by people whose opinions and decisions may affect your future! I wish you well in your efforts to attend PJOC, and in your career considerations. Regardless of AFSC, the Air Force is a great choice for a lifetime of service.

Best regards
_________________________
Ric Walters
Maj, CAP, Commander
Group IV, Texas Wing

"It matters not how strait the gate, how charged with punishments the scroll, I am the master of my fate; I am the Captain of my soul."
William Ernest Henley, British poet and critic (1849-1903)

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#982 - 03/31/15 03:34 AM Re: PJOC (Pararescue Orientation Course) [Re: Scott]
Hank Offline
FNG

Registered: 02/10/15
Posts: 2
Loc: Chattanooga, Tennessee
Having staffed PJOC I can add a little input that Yukon hasn't answered.

Scott, I won't be able to tell you much about the course, because although we want you to succeed and be as prepared as possible, your success does not depend on knowing what a 'typical' day will be like.

That being said here's a little about the course that will give you some general knowledge:

You will have an initial PT test at Kirtland before going to the field. Once in the field each day will start with PT and Reveille, then you'll switch off-and-on between the PJ instructors and the SERE Instructors every other day, end the day with retreat, and spend time before sleep with your flight. The last day will be the PT test and tests over all activities taught by your instructors. After time in the field you will travel back to Kirtland and have graduation from the course, but you only graduate if you pass all requirements of the course.

HOWEVER, the course does not always have the same instructors or support staff each year, so it is very fluid. You will still have the same general experience and training as other cadets other years, but you CANNOT take the "example" day I've given you as set in stone information. Start every day with the mindset of being prepared to learn something new, and with no expectations.

If you are accepted to the course you will be sent documents with all the information you need to prepare you for the course, so don't worry.

Go to the it with a completely open mind, check your ego at the door, and never quit. Hooyah!

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